I have never not neutered my guys. But I was also never particularly comfortable with it and have never done it before a year old, which used to be unusual. My Berner will be a year old this month, and I came upon your series while doing research on the dreaded question. I appreciated your background, particularly the link to the Harts' work. It only stands to reason that that the long-term effects vary by breed. I plan on taking their recommendation.
Unfortunately, I made the mistake of perusing the comments (I know, I know), which is the only reason I am leaving this one. It never ceases to amaze my how strongly people feel about decisions that have nothing to do with them and how certain they are that no one could be nearly as competent as them. Of course, we're talking about a self-selected group who feel the need to leave reviews... which I guess now includes me.
I don't buy the owner-reports on behavior of neutered versus unneutered males. The type of owner that is overly concerned with their dog's balls and his "intact masculinity" is the same type of owner that is likely to be over-protective of their dog in general and defensive about his nature. Everyone I have known that had a dog with balls also PREFERRED their dog to be a bit dominant and forceful and therefore I think their standards are different from someone who just wants a nice companionable non-guard dog. For me to trust those results, I would have to see behavior ratings made by independent evaluators, not the dog's own owners. It is just as likely that the opinions and preferences of the type of owner that wants his dog to have balls are significantly different from other owners, and they may be more willing to accept behavior and violate norms that other owners would not accept.
It also kind of goes against everything we know regarding every other species of neutered male mammal, including livestock and humans.
I would be delighted to have my intact and castrated dogs evaluated. Intact Levi readily approaches strangers, both humans and dogs, and seeks affection and play. Castrated Buddy is fearful of strangers, and if stressed, will growl. I agree that this is anecdotal evidence, and would love to see rigorous research on this topic.
Yeah, that's the problem with dog research...there are SO many factors...breed, environment, bias of the reporting party, etc., that it seems extremely difficult to get good findings with adequate controls. And we all have our anecdotes...I have two mixed breed dogs that I raised in a shared environment from puppyhood, who were both fixed early by the rescue organization (REALLY early). And they are both completely healthy and take 2 hour vigorous mountain hikes every day, but total opposites in personality. One is ultra social, friendly, and loves everyone but is completely lazy and sleeps all day when we aren't out on adventures, and would be an obese butterball if we let him. The other is a lean mean machine without an extra ounce on his body, quite aloof with strangers and with guard-dog growling tendencies, and alert and energetic all day. They're just completely different dogs, though the same size and close in age. There is so much variation in canines that I would think you would need a really enormous sample size to get any relevant results. And ideally, randomly assigned control and experimental groups, but that isn't going to happen.
I just know that there are at least some observable differences in owners who neuter versus those who don't, at the group level. For one, the non-neuterers are much more likely to have purebreeds, not mutts. Two, it seems more common with owners who have larger, tougher sporting or working dogs. It's very rare you see a 15 lb dog that isn't fixed, it's usually the big vigorous sporty dogs. Third, they're much more likely to be male themselves -- I know plenty of couples where the woman really wants to fix the dog but the husband insists they don't, seemingly out some sense of identification with the dog and their attachment to their own testicles.
I think you’re right. The black lab I grew up with still roamed even though he was neutered. He would disappear for days, just take himself off for a walk and wandered for miles. Otherwise he was an extremely placid sweet (and fat) dog.
I’m coming around to thinking it varies depending on dog personality (not even convinced by all dogs of this breed have x quality anymore)
Well, I'm male and quite attached to my testicles, and I like herding breeds. I also value calm, gentle, well-socialized dogs that I can take anywhere and that children can pet. Our intact Australian shepherd was such a dog, as was our intact pit bull-chow mix rescue. Despite his ancestry, he looked like an enormous puppy and loved children.
>>> "findings showed that spaying and neutering might actually be causing [dogs] suffering"
It's a surgical procedure - it involves a moderately unpleasant experience at the vet's, being intubated, stuck with needles, and under going a (slight) risk of death from anesthesia or infection. The surgery itself - like any surgery - can accurately be described as suffering.
(So does the surgery to repair a broken bone or to stitch a wound, or to removed a bad tooth.)
It's not a question of "does this cause suffering" but "do the benefits of this suffering outweigh the negatives?" And so the question is not "what animals suffer due to spaying and neutering" but "what fraction of animals who are spayed and neutered suffer *more* than they would have if they had not been spayed or neutered?"
I would argue that in the hands of the average pet owner, a male unfixed dog will more likely suffer an early death due to auto accidents or behavioral euthanasia than would a fixed male dog. And while the death rate for unspayed females is less than that for males, there is also the excess litters issue, such that the number of spay abortions or euthanasia for excess young dogs compounds into a much higher number.
So there are two major causes of injury, suffering, and death for the animal, both of which can be reduced via spaying and neutering. And those remedies are rejected in favor of...what upsides? Reducing the risk of lameness? Reducing the risk of incontinence? How many dogs develop severe lameness associated with desexing, vs how many are hit by cars? Are desexed animals more likely to die early, or is it intact animals? Is this tradeoff worth it? Or are the scales being tipped by the owner's preferences and perceptions?
I think that "there is no hard and fast rule" is a good principle which runs into problems when it actually runs into humans. If there is no hard and fast rule about spaying shelter animals, a non trivial fraction of people adopting pets won't, and their pets will reproduce, keeping the cycles going. So the rule gets made for everyone.
If an owner minds their dog, why would they need to get it “fixed”.
Vegans won’t eat an egg but they’ll have a dogs balls chopped off?
Katie is erring in the right direction by cutting off their dogs penis rather than his nuggets.
Female dogs have problems with cancer in their female parts but male dogs don’t have trouble with their male parts? Hmmm. It’s almost like males and females are different.
Chiming in as a vegan with two cats that have their balls chopped off. The production of eggs is via the exploitation of hens. Outside the potential (and unusual) situation of a rescue hen producing eggs and the caretaker eating them. The chopping off of balls reduces the chance of unplanned litters, who have scant chances of finding loving homes. No matter how well minded an animal is, accidents find a way to happen.
I am not on board with giving irresponsible dog owners (and there are many) a reason to not spay or neuter. However, I appreciate these alterations may come with risks. What about doggie vasectomy and tubal ligation? Is it too expensive or what? Why don't vets push this solution?
I have a visceral reaction to your series, let me tell ya! I've seen some crazy cancers in (female) animals that were either not spayed or spayed very late. I also went to school for vet tech and graduated in 2014 (at 42) and they very strictly educate us on all the ways in which to convince clients about neutering and spaying. :) I actually have no experience with male animals who have had cancer due to not neutering, however, for what that's worth. :) I like your work, Katie. It makes me think.
I know my pet is not a dog, but I currently have a male cat who is just over one year old and I have been delaying neutering him because I wanted him to fill out as a Tom, but when it came down to it, why should I? He is a 100% indoor cat in an apartment with another (neutered) male, so there's no risk of kittens, and none of his behaviors indicate that he should be neutered. So why should I spend 400 euros and put him through surgery? This is the first intact male cat that I've had, and the more I read about the negative implications of unnecessary surgery on animals, the less likely I am to neuter him. If his behavior ever warrants it like urine marking or fighting, then perhaps I would consider it but for right now that's not necessary. I also want to say that I underwent a hysterectomy at 31, and I'm noticing that I am suffering from joint problems a lot earlier than my counterparts of the same age. So perhaps the knowledge we are gaining from studying neutering of pets could also be applied to humans.
Edited to add, I am in Germany not america. We are more responsible with our pet ownership here, and when I lived in Los Angeles I did see plenty of intact dogs roaming the streets of the city. Contrary to what I see here just outside of Berlin, the dogs may be intact, but there are no strays. Zero. There are no free puppies, there are no cheap kittens, our pet culture is responsible and very effective.
Thanks for these articles, it is great to read a balanced discussion. Most of our dogs have not been neutered, and we have not had any of the behavioral or medical problems that are claimed to occur with intact dogs. To be clear, our dogs are rescued companion dogs, not breeders or show animals. One averse effect of neutering is obesity, which is as common in American dogs as it is in American humans. Obesity is a contributing factor in cancer and orthopedic problems, compounding the effects of early neutering. Our Buddy is an 11 year old Australian shepherd mix who was castrated before we got him at 14 months. That dog gains weight on air and water alone! At 60 lbs, he is thinner than he was at 14 months, but still should lose some weight. Intact 3 year old Levi weighs 42 lbs. He literally eats twice as much food as Buddy, and remains slender and athletic. Levi is a border collie (mostly?), so his genetics and energy level are not very different than Buddy's, taking the age difference into account.
When I was in a similar situation (we bought a German Shepherd from Schutzhund lines, his parents were imported from Germany) we compromised by waiting until he was, I think, 2 before we neutered him. Same thing with subsequent female dogs - try to let them go through at least one heat cycle before spaying. I had a female dog I got from the pound and thus she was spayed at 5 months. She had knee issues by age 4 and incontinence issues when she was 12 and 13.
A friend brought his 4 month old small breed puppy to visit. Intact Levi was wonderful with the pup, playing chase, keep-away, tug, and even sharing a chew toy. Castrated Buddy was tolerant but didn't really want to interact with the puppy. Looking back, I recall that our other intact male dogs were interested in and gentle with puppies. Has anyone else noticed this?
Curious to talk to more vets about this now. The super early age does seem like a topic to consider. A friend who is an older hippie adopted a poodle who had been the runt of a little frame a local breeder. She was a new empty nester and turned all that nurturing energy to the standard poodle. She chose not to spay. This dog lived a long long life for a big dog but went through so many surgeries I. The last few years - that her good dog specialist vet said was related to not being spayed. Oh also the dog was diagnosed with hip dysplasia early on - hugely expensive surgery - that she couldn’t afford. Turned out to probably be only a bone bruise from rough play or maybe not enough exercise as a lonely crated puppy at the breeder.
Hey, I'm a close personal friend of the pod. I finally pushed myself to read this. Full disclosure: I really don't like dogs. It's not like I'm hateful about them, but I think the less there are-- and the more owned by responsible people-- the better. That includes a future where there's way less dogs in the world, and possibly even an unfilled demand for dogs. A world where there's only ethical breeders and no rescues. I don't care if there's people out there who want dogs, but can't have them due to supply issues. Especially if it means every dog is in a home, and not feral / free roaming where I have to deal with them encroaching on my lesbian only desert commune (real place you could go to, but not the dog) then that's fucking great and I'm all for it. Feral dogs are a huge issue out here, and I think there's an obvious argument here for desexing in the case of feral populations of animals. Encountering one at night quickly reminds you that they're carnivores, and not just a puppy wuppy.
There's also a difference here, you know, between you as a dog owner and the average dog owner in the US. There's the type of dog owner that has fur babies and cares about their animals, and then there's the type of dog owner who gets dogs as property guardians and doesn't much care what happens to them after. I've got beef with both, because I think the first type anthropomorphizes their critters too much-- Jesus I hope you're just joking about Moose being gay. Both from a homophobic perspective and also as a dog hater-- and they think that if they just try hard enough, an animal will stop being an animal and become a little small human with a human's ability to rationalize. The second type, I think it's a little obvious why I have beef with them.
I'm interested in hearing what you think about the social contagion of dog related insanity, since you seem to have caught this from your wife. I've also never encountered people who are concerned about their dog's bodily autonomy who aren't also... let's say... Gendered? Septum piercing havers? Pronoun pin wearers?
My other big question is whether or not you've though of making Rocky Mountain Oysters out of Moose Nuggets. And whether you think this might be a popular locavore food truck and mobile nut removal service to areas with a surplus of feral animals. Thanks and tell Jesse to get into more Twitter beefs, I need something to read now that I'm done.
I have never not neutered my guys. But I was also never particularly comfortable with it and have never done it before a year old, which used to be unusual. My Berner will be a year old this month, and I came upon your series while doing research on the dreaded question. I appreciated your background, particularly the link to the Harts' work. It only stands to reason that that the long-term effects vary by breed. I plan on taking their recommendation.
Unfortunately, I made the mistake of perusing the comments (I know, I know), which is the only reason I am leaving this one. It never ceases to amaze my how strongly people feel about decisions that have nothing to do with them and how certain they are that no one could be nearly as competent as them. Of course, we're talking about a self-selected group who feel the need to leave reviews... which I guess now includes me.
Anyway, thanks for this.
I don't buy the owner-reports on behavior of neutered versus unneutered males. The type of owner that is overly concerned with their dog's balls and his "intact masculinity" is the same type of owner that is likely to be over-protective of their dog in general and defensive about his nature. Everyone I have known that had a dog with balls also PREFERRED their dog to be a bit dominant and forceful and therefore I think their standards are different from someone who just wants a nice companionable non-guard dog. For me to trust those results, I would have to see behavior ratings made by independent evaluators, not the dog's own owners. It is just as likely that the opinions and preferences of the type of owner that wants his dog to have balls are significantly different from other owners, and they may be more willing to accept behavior and violate norms that other owners would not accept.
It also kind of goes against everything we know regarding every other species of neutered male mammal, including livestock and humans.
I would be delighted to have my intact and castrated dogs evaluated. Intact Levi readily approaches strangers, both humans and dogs, and seeks affection and play. Castrated Buddy is fearful of strangers, and if stressed, will growl. I agree that this is anecdotal evidence, and would love to see rigorous research on this topic.
Yeah, that's the problem with dog research...there are SO many factors...breed, environment, bias of the reporting party, etc., that it seems extremely difficult to get good findings with adequate controls. And we all have our anecdotes...I have two mixed breed dogs that I raised in a shared environment from puppyhood, who were both fixed early by the rescue organization (REALLY early). And they are both completely healthy and take 2 hour vigorous mountain hikes every day, but total opposites in personality. One is ultra social, friendly, and loves everyone but is completely lazy and sleeps all day when we aren't out on adventures, and would be an obese butterball if we let him. The other is a lean mean machine without an extra ounce on his body, quite aloof with strangers and with guard-dog growling tendencies, and alert and energetic all day. They're just completely different dogs, though the same size and close in age. There is so much variation in canines that I would think you would need a really enormous sample size to get any relevant results. And ideally, randomly assigned control and experimental groups, but that isn't going to happen.
I just know that there are at least some observable differences in owners who neuter versus those who don't, at the group level. For one, the non-neuterers are much more likely to have purebreeds, not mutts. Two, it seems more common with owners who have larger, tougher sporting or working dogs. It's very rare you see a 15 lb dog that isn't fixed, it's usually the big vigorous sporty dogs. Third, they're much more likely to be male themselves -- I know plenty of couples where the woman really wants to fix the dog but the husband insists they don't, seemingly out some sense of identification with the dog and their attachment to their own testicles.
>>> Very rare you see a 15 lb dog that isn't fixed
I think this is a regional/social group difference. There are multiple chihuahua mixes in my neighborhood completely intact.
I think you’re right. The black lab I grew up with still roamed even though he was neutered. He would disappear for days, just take himself off for a walk and wandered for miles. Otherwise he was an extremely placid sweet (and fat) dog.
I’m coming around to thinking it varies depending on dog personality (not even convinced by all dogs of this breed have x quality anymore)
Well, I'm male and quite attached to my testicles, and I like herding breeds. I also value calm, gentle, well-socialized dogs that I can take anywhere and that children can pet. Our intact Australian shepherd was such a dog, as was our intact pit bull-chow mix rescue. Despite his ancestry, he looked like an enormous puppy and loved children.
>>> "findings showed that spaying and neutering might actually be causing [dogs] suffering"
It's a surgical procedure - it involves a moderately unpleasant experience at the vet's, being intubated, stuck with needles, and under going a (slight) risk of death from anesthesia or infection. The surgery itself - like any surgery - can accurately be described as suffering.
(So does the surgery to repair a broken bone or to stitch a wound, or to removed a bad tooth.)
It's not a question of "does this cause suffering" but "do the benefits of this suffering outweigh the negatives?" And so the question is not "what animals suffer due to spaying and neutering" but "what fraction of animals who are spayed and neutered suffer *more* than they would have if they had not been spayed or neutered?"
I would argue that in the hands of the average pet owner, a male unfixed dog will more likely suffer an early death due to auto accidents or behavioral euthanasia than would a fixed male dog. And while the death rate for unspayed females is less than that for males, there is also the excess litters issue, such that the number of spay abortions or euthanasia for excess young dogs compounds into a much higher number.
So there are two major causes of injury, suffering, and death for the animal, both of which can be reduced via spaying and neutering. And those remedies are rejected in favor of...what upsides? Reducing the risk of lameness? Reducing the risk of incontinence? How many dogs develop severe lameness associated with desexing, vs how many are hit by cars? Are desexed animals more likely to die early, or is it intact animals? Is this tradeoff worth it? Or are the scales being tipped by the owner's preferences and perceptions?
I think that "there is no hard and fast rule" is a good principle which runs into problems when it actually runs into humans. If there is no hard and fast rule about spaying shelter animals, a non trivial fraction of people adopting pets won't, and their pets will reproduce, keeping the cycles going. So the rule gets made for everyone.
If an owner minds their dog, why would they need to get it “fixed”.
Vegans won’t eat an egg but they’ll have a dogs balls chopped off?
Katie is erring in the right direction by cutting off their dogs penis rather than his nuggets.
Female dogs have problems with cancer in their female parts but male dogs don’t have trouble with their male parts? Hmmm. It’s almost like males and females are different.
Chiming in as a vegan with two cats that have their balls chopped off. The production of eggs is via the exploitation of hens. Outside the potential (and unusual) situation of a rescue hen producing eggs and the caretaker eating them. The chopping off of balls reduces the chance of unplanned litters, who have scant chances of finding loving homes. No matter how well minded an animal is, accidents find a way to happen.
I am not on board with giving irresponsible dog owners (and there are many) a reason to not spay or neuter. However, I appreciate these alterations may come with risks. What about doggie vasectomy and tubal ligation? Is it too expensive or what? Why don't vets push this solution?
I have a visceral reaction to your series, let me tell ya! I've seen some crazy cancers in (female) animals that were either not spayed or spayed very late. I also went to school for vet tech and graduated in 2014 (at 42) and they very strictly educate us on all the ways in which to convince clients about neutering and spaying. :) I actually have no experience with male animals who have had cancer due to not neutering, however, for what that's worth. :) I like your work, Katie. It makes me think.
I know my pet is not a dog, but I currently have a male cat who is just over one year old and I have been delaying neutering him because I wanted him to fill out as a Tom, but when it came down to it, why should I? He is a 100% indoor cat in an apartment with another (neutered) male, so there's no risk of kittens, and none of his behaviors indicate that he should be neutered. So why should I spend 400 euros and put him through surgery? This is the first intact male cat that I've had, and the more I read about the negative implications of unnecessary surgery on animals, the less likely I am to neuter him. If his behavior ever warrants it like urine marking or fighting, then perhaps I would consider it but for right now that's not necessary. I also want to say that I underwent a hysterectomy at 31, and I'm noticing that I am suffering from joint problems a lot earlier than my counterparts of the same age. So perhaps the knowledge we are gaining from studying neutering of pets could also be applied to humans.
Edited to add, I am in Germany not america. We are more responsible with our pet ownership here, and when I lived in Los Angeles I did see plenty of intact dogs roaming the streets of the city. Contrary to what I see here just outside of Berlin, the dogs may be intact, but there are no strays. Zero. There are no free puppies, there are no cheap kittens, our pet culture is responsible and very effective.
Is the final article ever going to come out?
What was the end result of Moose’s nuggets?
Thanks for these articles, it is great to read a balanced discussion. Most of our dogs have not been neutered, and we have not had any of the behavioral or medical problems that are claimed to occur with intact dogs. To be clear, our dogs are rescued companion dogs, not breeders or show animals. One averse effect of neutering is obesity, which is as common in American dogs as it is in American humans. Obesity is a contributing factor in cancer and orthopedic problems, compounding the effects of early neutering. Our Buddy is an 11 year old Australian shepherd mix who was castrated before we got him at 14 months. That dog gains weight on air and water alone! At 60 lbs, he is thinner than he was at 14 months, but still should lose some weight. Intact 3 year old Levi weighs 42 lbs. He literally eats twice as much food as Buddy, and remains slender and athletic. Levi is a border collie (mostly?), so his genetics and energy level are not very different than Buddy's, taking the age difference into account.
When I was in a similar situation (we bought a German Shepherd from Schutzhund lines, his parents were imported from Germany) we compromised by waiting until he was, I think, 2 before we neutered him. Same thing with subsequent female dogs - try to let them go through at least one heat cycle before spaying. I had a female dog I got from the pound and thus she was spayed at 5 months. She had knee issues by age 4 and incontinence issues when she was 12 and 13.
A friend brought his 4 month old small breed puppy to visit. Intact Levi was wonderful with the pup, playing chase, keep-away, tug, and even sharing a chew toy. Castrated Buddy was tolerant but didn't really want to interact with the puppy. Looking back, I recall that our other intact male dogs were interested in and gentle with puppies. Has anyone else noticed this?
Curious to talk to more vets about this now. The super early age does seem like a topic to consider. A friend who is an older hippie adopted a poodle who had been the runt of a little frame a local breeder. She was a new empty nester and turned all that nurturing energy to the standard poodle. She chose not to spay. This dog lived a long long life for a big dog but went through so many surgeries I. The last few years - that her good dog specialist vet said was related to not being spayed. Oh also the dog was diagnosed with hip dysplasia early on - hugely expensive surgery - that she couldn’t afford. Turned out to probably be only a bone bruise from rough play or maybe not enough exercise as a lonely crated puppy at the breeder.
Acts 16:31, 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, 1 Peter 1:17-21, Revelation 22:18-19
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Hey, I'm a close personal friend of the pod. I finally pushed myself to read this. Full disclosure: I really don't like dogs. It's not like I'm hateful about them, but I think the less there are-- and the more owned by responsible people-- the better. That includes a future where there's way less dogs in the world, and possibly even an unfilled demand for dogs. A world where there's only ethical breeders and no rescues. I don't care if there's people out there who want dogs, but can't have them due to supply issues. Especially if it means every dog is in a home, and not feral / free roaming where I have to deal with them encroaching on my lesbian only desert commune (real place you could go to, but not the dog) then that's fucking great and I'm all for it. Feral dogs are a huge issue out here, and I think there's an obvious argument here for desexing in the case of feral populations of animals. Encountering one at night quickly reminds you that they're carnivores, and not just a puppy wuppy.
There's also a difference here, you know, between you as a dog owner and the average dog owner in the US. There's the type of dog owner that has fur babies and cares about their animals, and then there's the type of dog owner who gets dogs as property guardians and doesn't much care what happens to them after. I've got beef with both, because I think the first type anthropomorphizes their critters too much-- Jesus I hope you're just joking about Moose being gay. Both from a homophobic perspective and also as a dog hater-- and they think that if they just try hard enough, an animal will stop being an animal and become a little small human with a human's ability to rationalize. The second type, I think it's a little obvious why I have beef with them.
I'm interested in hearing what you think about the social contagion of dog related insanity, since you seem to have caught this from your wife. I've also never encountered people who are concerned about their dog's bodily autonomy who aren't also... let's say... Gendered? Septum piercing havers? Pronoun pin wearers?
My other big question is whether or not you've though of making Rocky Mountain Oysters out of Moose Nuggets. And whether you think this might be a popular locavore food truck and mobile nut removal service to areas with a surplus of feral animals. Thanks and tell Jesse to get into more Twitter beefs, I need something to read now that I'm done.